By Antonio D. French
Filed Wednesday, June 21, 2006 at 11:18 PM
The St. Louis Police Board held a public meeting tonight in south St. Louis. One of the things on its agenda was to hear public comments on the issue of maintaining a department policy requiring most civilian employees to live in the city.
The almost all-white audience was filled mostly with people supporting the idea that department employees should be able to live wherever they'd like. They pointed to the state of the city schools, the rise in property values, and even crime as reasons all employees of the Police Department should be able to move out of the city.
Only a handful of people spoke in support of keeping the requirement. One elderly woman said she felt safer with police living in her neighborhood. At the conclusion of her statement, she was booed by some in the audience. Another older woman said city jobs should go to city residents. She was also booed.
25 Comments:
I'm usually tough on cops, but I think this story may do them an injustice.
The sensationalist headline reads, "Police Boo Old Ladies," but the text merely states that the two women were booed "by some in the audience." If those doing the booing were in fact cops, the text should say so. And if not, the headline is misleading. Please revise whichever is wrong.
6/22/2006 12:35 AM
Antonio:
You usually do a fine, and fair, job of reporting, but on this report, I have to take issue with some of your points.
1. What was the point of even mentioning the race of those in the audience? What does race have to do with the issue of residency? I think the fact that folks of mostly the same race spoke on both sides of the issue points to the fact that is has no place in this discussion. Frankly, I am disappointed in you for even having mentioned it. Like I said above, you usually do a fine job, so I'll give you a little slack and assume it has to do with it having been 9 PM when you filed your story.
2. I would disagree with your assessment that the audience was mostly in favor of lifting the residency requirement. While most of those that spoke, of which many were employees of the Department, were for lifting the requirement, by a show of rousing applause for speakers on both sides of the issue, beyond the obligatory polite applause, I would say that the crowd in attendance was evenly split on the issue.
3. Was the point of refering to the lady that was booed by some of the audience as "elderly" to imply that she was frail? If not, I don't understand why you would raise that point. If so, what does her age have to do with where she stands on the issue?
4. As for Oracle's point, I am in complete agreement that casting the aspersion on the fine officers of the city as booers of old ladies is sensationalistic and inappropriate. First, it was clearly only those in the seated audience that participated in any booing. And, I saw no uniformed police officers sitting. Standing in the back, yes; sitting in the audience, no. So, saying that it was officers booing the ladies is complete conjecture and speculation.
I'm sorry for being hard on you, Antonio. As I said above, I usually think you do a fine job of reporting. Keep it up, but keep it on the straight-and-narrow, please.
6/22/2006 12:50 AM
I agree that the headline is sensational, but intentionally so.
I deliberately did not say "Cops Booed Old Ladies" because I don't know if the people were actually officers. But they were definitely police department employees.
"Cops" versus "police" -- it might sound a bit like semantics, but fuck it. The whole meeting pissed me off.
Such a outrageous act as booing two old ladies (with no bang of the gavel from the board president or a word from the mayor) deserves an equally outrageous headline.
6/22/2006 12:53 AM
And Travis, my naive friend, race has a whole lot to do with the issue of police residency.
First, this issue is too often framed in terms of the officers and the district employees. For a moment, look at it in terms of the people who interact with the police everyday -- namely young black males.
People need to realize that if the residency requirement were completetly lifted for officers, not only would many city cops move to the county, but county residents would be free to apply for jobs as city cops.
Fenton boys given authority over northside boys means trouble in my community.
Not only that, but in a city that is majority black, African-Americans are still not represented proportionally as cops or as civilian employees in the department. Even to the point that there is basically a union for white cops and a union for black cops.
The residency requirement takes away a large point of leverage for black cops looking to increase their numbers. If all of a sudden there's a larger pool of white applicants, look for a whiter police force.
Let's not lose sight of the basic function of the police force. They are the ones with the guns. It is that simple fact (and race) that prompted the State of Missouri to take away control of the city's police force during the Civil War era.
And Alderman Terry Kennedy is correct when he says a police force that is not from that community is more like an occupying force.
Just because you don't think about race that often, Travis, doesn't mean it's influence is not all around you.
Why did I mention the race of the audience members, because my white readers wouldn't have even thought about it if I didn't.
6/22/2006 1:13 AM
Antonio is right, you'll never hear about the police doing one of these in my neighborhood, LOL. Police suck, I watched this man die that the police killed, they let him lie there on the ground for 1 1/2 hours before they called him some help, then later on the news I saw headlines that said the cop was a hero and shot the bad guy, they lie and cheat bigtime, But on top of that many cops Ive talked to said they aready live in the county but keep a place in the city to use as an address. the point with the bad schools in the city is a good reason to want to move your fam out! Saint Louis is a very racist city but I think blacks are more racist than whites by far... and Im black, but if you tell blacks that they wont believe it.
6/22/2006 1:25 AM
Brian, I think it has become popular to say that blacks are more racist than whites. Chris Rock deserves much the blame (or credit) with his "black people really hate niggas" routine. [Now folks don't make me feel like Dave Chappelle here. Just because I used the "N-word" for the first time on this blog, don't think it gives you license to start throwing it around.]
But Rock's routine missed the same point I think you're missing now (though I think Rock is fully aware of it). Blacks aren't necessarily more racist, I think we are more class conscious.
And the issue of class is more prevailing in the St. Louis area than even race. But it is often misidentified as racism.
The issue of class is present in every discussion of public education in the City of St. Louis, even if its not spoken.
And classism, more than racism, is probably why these police department employees really want to leave the city.
They don't want to live close to poverty. They don't want their kids going to school with poor kids and all the issues that poverty brings along with it.
Black or white, poverty is ugly. Cops see it more than most. And they want better for their kids. They shouldn't be faulted for that. All of us want the same thing.
But from the point of view of what is best for the City, not those few police department employees, it makes no sense to opt to significantly slash the percentage of payroll dollars we will get back in the form of taxes.
If those employees go away, so do their property taxes. If they go away, so does much of their sales tax revenue.
The fact is that the population of this city is mostly poor and working-poor and we need all the tax dollars we can get to provide services for ourselves.
6/22/2006 1:59 AM
When the police are allowed to leave, one can expect major problems to surface.
Like the old lady, I like police in my neighborhood. Furthermore, I do not want County cops patrolling my streets. If they do not live here, why should they care about my neighborhood? Their property is not affected, and they may not have any real incentive to keep the streets clean.
Residency is essential for policing in cities. We cannot have police moving out of the neighborhoods, because community connections are lost.
Furthermore, African Americans, who are often brutalized by Police, and I say often because I have seen it happen, have the greatest to loose if the police leave the City. Their neighborhoods often need community involvement, as poverty has stripped their community of much of its leadership. Alien police will only further erode the community involvement, and further increase paranoia which African American residents hold against the police.
All residents, regardless of race, need to trust the police. I highly doubt that removing the residency requirement will further this goal.
Finally, if this happens, even if St. Louis recieves local control of the police, such control would be inane.
6/22/2006 8:01 AM
I dont even listen to chris rock, I just listen to "niggas" in my hood talk that stupid stuff about the white man, and if you live in the hood, you hear the same thing. I dont think its a deep hate for whites but something taught, But you find whites living in the same area that dont have any problems, and you can find progressive blacks facing problems with lower income blacks, the whole "being black" thing really has nothing to do with skin color but more so saying ignorant and acting in a certain manner. Back in the day an educated black was called an uncle tom by his black peers, today he maybe called a sellout, or some may say hes white, just like blacks will call a white man really a black man because of the way he carries himself. I dont listen to anything chris rock says and have never heard him say anything like what you have applied. The funny thing is, The NAACP with attack a white person for doing blacks wrong but dam, blacks kick blacks ass all day and they dont say nothing! I aint seen a white person do nothing to anybody growing up in my hood, or at school but I saw plenty of blacks robbing, selling crack to my friends parents, destroying my neighborhood, and the list could go on. check this out, blacks situation is progressively getting worse, just look at our future, but most are so busy blaming the "white man" when the problem doesnt lie with the white man it lies with "US"!
6/22/2006 8:50 AM
Honestly, City cops overwhelmingly live in just the southwestern parts of our city. So while it may be bad policy to have a Fenton boi patrol Northside boyz, isn't it likewise bad having the River Des Peres squad serving Northsiders?
Luckily, the City is gaining pop now, such that we don't need any residency-whiners among us. Besides, Southwest City homes are way over-priced (good luck, copper in cashing in, when all your co-workers will want to as well). And if all the cops were to move en masse, all of us could finally afford us a piece of them exclusive Hills. Just say bye-bye to the po-po!
6/22/2006 9:06 AM
The main problem with the - who is more racist – argument is how do you prove it… that is why it is waste of energy.
There are more white folks pulling the strings of our economy. So a racist businessperson can keep money out of black folks hands. That behavior is not illegal, but I would say it’s immoral.
On the other hand black folks that are poor have limited options in mobility. It’s hard to move out to exurbia when you are on the bus and can’t afford a 400K house.
On the other hand when I travel to small towns that are 90% white I see the same ghettoizing of poor white folks.
The real discrimination is of class. The USA is supposed to be class free, but has always been racist; I think that is why it is so hard to come to grips with the real issues.
6/22/2006 9:48 AM
Oracle, I didn't see you there last night, but I did see Travis, and I agree with him totally.
I told Chris Goodson after the meeting that there would be no way to gain a consensus of what the public wants regarding this issue at meetings like this because the one last night was packed with civilian police employees who applauded one another and booed anyone who disagreed with them. There were people who favor residency who were too intimidated to speak.
I did not notice any uniformed officers booing, but there were many of all ranks in the Word of Life gym, and we all know how most of them feel about this issue.
Our neighbhorhood association meets in that gym, and regardless of what topic we are discussing or which political candidates attend, we demand that everyone is treated with respect. I did not see that at the police board meeting last night. Admittedly, I was at the back of the room and perhaps did not hear a member of the board admonish those who were booing.
Col. Goodson told me that there will be more such meetings in neighborhoods all over the city. Stay tuned for the show near you.
I am not adept at this blogger stuff, so I'll just sign my name--
Carol Wilson
6/22/2006 10:46 AM
Police get big money to put down on houses and they have endless programs that kind of make up for there low pay. But if I were a cop I wouldnt want to live where a criminal could find my family, the city is very small, I think they should be able to move, I also think that would break some of these politicial clicks in the city too. and maybe some work would get done.
6/22/2006 10:53 AM
Everyone says that they like having police in their neighborhood, but how many actually do? I know where I live in North City I don't have any cops in my area. It is a nice sentiment to say that the cops should have to continue to live where they work, but the city is actually quite large and the area where most cops live quite small. I don't think cops should live where they patrol because it would either be dangerous for them or they might cut their neighbor a break, but I do think they should have to live in the city for atleast a period of time. They know when they sign up they have to live in the city. Maybe a seven to ten year deal would be alright though.
6/22/2006 11:19 AM
As a white middle class man, I want the cops that police my block living in my neighborhood.
I think it's fundamental in any civilized society that law enforcement be done by people who have a stake in the areas they patrol, in the people they interact with. It's a natural check against abuse of power. It just makes sense.
Sorry if you're a cop and you don't like it. As far as I'm concerned if you don't care enough to live here then you don't deserve my tax dollars as your salary.
6/22/2006 12:27 PM
Wow, this conversation has gone all over the place.
Antonio:
I would agree that booing, of "old ladies" or anyone is inappropriate in public discourse and debate.
I'm sure you have statistics, as a good journalist, to back your statements about the racial make-up of the Department. But I cannot say that I see a disproportionate number of one race over another in the officers serving my neighborhood. Recently, a foot patrol was temporarily established along Meramec from Grand to Compton and around St. Anthony of Padua church. I've talked with a good number of the officers, of which former Mayor Harmon's youngest son was one. Although the foot patrol is now gone, there is a residual increase in the number of motorized patrol officers in the area. In fact, the 3 officers in cars assisting the recent St. Anthony's parade were all black. I only noticed because I've been keeping a look out for new faces, as District 1 is growing by 9 new officers.
It is very obvious that race through socio-economic ("class") status shapes our experiences, especially early in life, and therefor shapes our outlook on life in general, but in this case our outlook on the police.
I've noticed that usually when race is brought-up in a conversation, it is brought-up by the black participant to the conversation. I never understood why this was, but now think I do. I think I understand what you are saying that while many white people do not think, or worry, about race, it is ever present in the minds of black people. Do you think, though, that there will be a point where we are able to get beyond race, and other like divisive issues?
What I find interesting is that in your argument against lifting residency requirements is that the effected cops will move out of the city to get away from the school and the poor residents of the city. Many of the arguments that I've seen by the police officers wanting the requirement lifted is in agreement with your note on schools, but then they go on to say they cannot afford to live in the city any longer due to rising housing prices. I've not taken a position on the residency requirement, but find these two arguments oddly in opposition to eachother logically. Maybe this is just the difficult position middle-America is in--not rich, but not poor either, and accepted by neither side.
But you know, this really isn't about race, as you noted. I think the line by the title character of the movie Bulworth is appropriate here, 'Rich people have always divided poor white people and poor black people to keep them from working together' (paraphrased).
Brian:
I cannot accept your blanket statement that "police suck." While there may be some poor practitioners within the career of law enforcement, I choose to believe that the overwhelming majority of cops in the city care about the city, care about the residents, and do a good job. That is not to say that we as residents don't have the right and obligation to oversight to ensure that they continue to do a good job protecting us, but I don't think a "them or us" scenario benefits anyone. As it stands, with most officers living in the city, they ARE us.
6/22/2006 12:28 PM
I said my piece on my blog. But in short, our police officers need to remain in the city. I can't really add anything that hasn't been already said by Antonio, Travis, or Doug. The aggregate view on this is simply we want city residents (our police) to patrol our streets.
In that vein, I understand why our officers want to live where their kids would have the best opportunities available to them. But it comes down to this: Who's more important? Your family or the public you serve?
6/22/2006 1:00 PM
You know, if we maybe solve the issues plaguing the City (under achieving schools, crime, and segregation, among other issues), then more people, including City employees, would desire to live in the City. I am encouraged by the fact that for the first time in 50 years the City's population has increased. We just need to work together, as a community to make this a better community.
6/22/2006 1:35 PM
travis reems, your right. I respect your comments.
6/22/2006 1:43 PM
FYI:
There are 1,377 commissioned officers in the St. Louis City Police Department. Only 34% of those are black.
388 are black males. 81 are black females.
6/22/2006 4:27 PM
Antonio:
So to your point, we need more women on the force.
6/22/2006 6:59 PM
I was the ano that was defending unions racial make up.
I think Antonio's point is just to put up the fact.
I would go to the point that the police force dose not represent the city of St. Louis as it is.
A Police force that is 34% black and 8% Female in a city that is like 60+% black and 50+% female is clearly racist and sexist.
In my posts about Unions I was trying to get the point across that Unions are Inclusive because the percentage of mebership reflects the population as a whole.
I don't think that any one has ever said the police where and inclusive organization. But, If you wan't to fix racial profialing, a corupt judicial system, and a disastrous prison system you have to get the COPS to represent the people they serve.
The fire department is the same way.
But, other public sector jobs represent the demografics of the city.
Why can't the police and fire department?
Thats my two-cents.
6/22/2006 9:15 PM
Anon:
Agreed. If qualified people apply for an open position they should have a fair chance at getting it. My point to Antonio was that he was arguing that the Department doesn't have enough black officers, but with his data, its clear that the female officers are slighted more than the black officers, yet he didn't make an argument for more women officers.
6/22/2006 10:20 PM
travis is saying blacks arent qualified to be police officers but doesnt understand the black culture that you dont become a po po and if you do you dont let many people know you the po po. Its not a cool thing to be a cop in my hood!
6/23/2006 12:01 AM
will do Nia know it all, maybe bill cosby can expand your thinking. Im black, dont forget to tell every black you hear use that word in your neighborhood 10,k times a day not to use it. :D
please check the content of the convo where the N word was used. its not used at a person, thank you!
6/23/2006 1:37 PM
Hey Nia, Tell the NAACP to become productive in our neighborhoods, fixing the problem of political curption in our communities and leave the whiteman alone for a while, we need some help first! Im working on my blog and profile, Im trying to figure out how to work this thing so You can see me.
6/23/2006 1:40 PM
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